4-3 Insights from Sirva & Newland Chase: Immigration Shifts in the Wake of the Super Election Year

The US election has concluded, and several newly elected global leaders have initiated the implementation of legislative agendas. This juncture provides an opportune moment to revisit the "super election year" and, through the prism of immigration, analyze the realized changes and formulate strategic responses for the field of global mobility. 

Join Sirva Soundbites host, Emma Dodwell-Groves and Ray Rackham, Co-Chair at Newland Chase, as they reflect on what happened during the super election year and discuss next steps which talent mobility professionals will need to consider. 

Ray Rackham is Co-Chair of Newland Chase, and serves as Senior Vice President for Client Solutions for CIBT Inc. As Co-Chair of Newland Chase, Ray focuses on the broad commercial aspects of the company; having responsibility for our world-class Newland Chase Advisory practice, our Client Relationship Management and Key Strategic Partnership groups, the development of Immigration Client Solutions; as well as a number of CIBT functions, including marketing. Ray’s role is to ensure that the services we offer meet the needs of our clients, today, tomorrow and beyond. Ray also leads on our thought leadership, public policy, and advocacy efforts.

Emma Dodwell-Groves is a Consultant on the Sirva Global Advisory Services team and has over 15 years of experience supporting clients in talent development, global mobility, and cultural training, with a more recent specialization in consulting on diversity, equity & inclusion (DEI) and environmental sustainability. 

Sirva Soundbites provides the insights, tools and best practices to help talent mobility and human resources professionals navigate through the evolving global talent mobility landscape more confidently and effectively. 

Get in touch with us: soundbites@sirva.com

Transcript

Emma Dodwell-Groves: [00:00:00] You are listening to Sirva Soundbites, the official podcast of Sirva, a leading global relocation management and moving services company. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to Sirva Soundbites, where we aim to connect, inform, educate, and entertain our listeners. I'm Emma Dodwell-Groves, Senior Manager of Global Advisory Services at Sirva.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And today we have a podcast favorite, Ray Rackam here with us again. Ray is an expert in global immigration and compliance. Welcome back to Sirva Soundbites. Ray, could you quickly introduce yourself for listeners that missed our last episode together? 

Ray Rackham: Thanks so much, Emma. Uh, yes. Uh, hello everyone. I'm Ray Rackham.

Ray Rackham: Um, recently appointed co-chair of Newland Chase. Um, I still have kept my client solutions thought leadership role, but actually our new CEO has invited me to be the steward of our 2025 and beyond. Strategy [00:01:00] and what it means to operate as a immigration service provider to, uh, corporations and individuals alike this year and heading towards 2030. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: It sounds like we have the perfect person on the podcast. I mean, you were the perfect person last time, but with your new snazzy position, I think the fact that you're forward-looking future navigation is exactly what we want to talk about here today. So, perfect. Thank you. 

Ray Rackham: You're welcome. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: We last spoke in October, I think last year, and we talked about the impact at that stage of the super election year on immigration.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And what we tried to do them was to help our listeners be prepared for the possible legislative and immigration shifts that might come as a result of some of those elections around the world. Since then, the US election has taken place and many of the global leaders that won those elections last year have begun to implement their legislative and immigration changes that maybe [00:02:00] previously were just election rhetoric.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And we didn't know what was going to happen. So now we have this opportunity to connect again and use immigration as a lens. Through which to look back on the super election year, reflect on what's actually happened and consider next steps that global mobility will need to consider. That was, I said, you're the perfect person to talk about it.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Let's start, I'll try and structure us through, let's start with the elephant in the room. Trump won the U S election. So let's start with the US and immigration. We know it was a critical issue in his campaign. What's actually happened so far and what do you anticipate in that space? 

Ray Rackham: Oh, my goodness, Emma, that is such a question.

Ray Rackham: Yeah. I mean, let's, I mean, if we think of the U. S. really as a microcosm of, of, of example of what really happened throughout 2024, super election year, um, 74 countries in, in one way went to the polls and, [00:03:00] and the U. S. seems to typify what happened in. The vast majority of those elections, the incumbents were displaced.

Ray Rackham: Those administrations that had been in place were either thrown out or weakened into kind of forms of coalition. We saw the advent of autocracy, of populism in the second half of last year. So many presidential elections came, uh, came almost kind of week after week after week. And it really did have populist politics really at the forefront of everyone's mind.

Ray Rackham: And Not so much the elephant in the room, but the reality in the room now that immigration forms a central part of public policy the whole world over and specifically thinking about the U. S. Um, when we spoke last time, we talked very much about the conflation or the confusion of economic migration with, with asylum or undocumented migrants or, or, [00:04:00] or, or those who were seeking.

Ray Rackham: Uh, migration to a country for humanitarian reasons or purposes, and we're seeing kind of those two sides of the coin very much in the immediacy of a Trump, uh, second term. Um, let's, let's start with what we're interested in, the kind of economic migration, the simplification of H1B. Um, we, yeah, it's a huge thing.

Ray Rackham: And we must remember that, you know, these simplification procedures were announced prior to the inauguration, um, but led to an absolute uproar, um, in what can be defined as President Trump's electoral base. The updated rules for H1B simplification include a whole raft of things, but clarifying eligibility criteria, streamlining processes.

Ray Rackham: and measures to ensure fairness and transparency. Now that's according to the U. S. Department of Homeland Security, the DHS. Um, the negative response in the kind of the, the [00:05:00] electorate, the base Trump supporters, was palpable. Um, H 1B is a popular visa. It's been around for over 30 years and it allows the U.S. employers to temporarily offer foreign work nationals or migrant workers. who are highly specialized and highly skilled to come and live and work in the U. S. Um, it's the irony of populist politics that I'm interested in here because H 1B doesn't grant permanent residency automatically. Um, and that seems to be the confusion in most of the electoral base.

Ray Rackham: Um, But we've seen an almost about turn from President Trump compared to his 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Is that a surprise? An about turn? Well, 

Ray Rackham: depending on, on how you look at it, but we have seen this kind of flip, um, welcoming H1B. And I think this is, I imagine has been encouraged by his influential support in Silicon Valley, for example, [00:06:00] but the majority of H1B visa applications come from India, about 7 out of 10 H1B.

Ray Rackham: These are Africans, uh, are Indian nationals and it's a very different take from Trump's kind of buy American, hire American executive order in his first term where President Trump is actually saying we need H1B workers. Now that's caused a lot of scratching of heads in, in, in Trump's kind of base, base electorate.

Ray Rackham: Um, who, who still very much adhere to the buy American hire American kind of anti-free trade, anti-immigration, um, lens. Then on the other side of that coin, we've seen immediately the, the, um, sustained, uh, approach, should I say there, I might even say attack on undocumented or illegal migrants. With the advent, the rehab, then device.

Ray Rackham: Um, and. [00:07:00] And the deportations that we have already seen. So those two sides of the coin that we discussed at length last time are really being played almost immediately, uh, you know, before 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Trump came into power, they were already in play. 

Ray Rackham: Absolutely. And with those massive executive orders. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Right. And that's the way he's going about things through executive orders, which we've seen it before as well.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Here's a part of the problem of modern day American politics. It's the one, you know, president comes in and puts in a whole bunch of executive orders and the next one cancels them and starts a whole new set, which is why I think it was so important that we're all paying close attention because these things can turn on a dime.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: These things can be done very quickly. They don't need to go through such slow, rigorous processes. You did make me think though, not only about, um, you know, undocumented migrants, but also the birthright question, you know, are certain people, I'm not sure the implications of that yet, but those, those two elements seem to be on that one side of the coin, [00:08:00] as opposed to the idea, we want skilled workers, we need skilled workers, and we'll get into the skilled shortage coming up a little bit later.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: But there is an awareness that that's the case, and you sort of need to find a place that it fits into anti immigrant sentiment. in some populism. So it's a, I think you're right that it's a real contradiction, real interesting one. 

Ray Rackham: And depending on where you sit on the political spectrum, there are deep rooted questions about the legitimacy of decisions that were considered to be enshrined within the constitution.

Um, 

Ray Rackham: and it's asking lots of questions around what would the founding fathers thinking when they put some of these things into place? And it's very similar. Although entirely different as people, we, we don't, oftentimes when we're thinking about super election year, but it's very similar to the discussions that are happening in the, in the UK at the moment around the kind of electoral system that they, you know, the, the reform party only [00:09:00] getting a handful of seats, but having 14 percent of the vote share that seems to be this.

Ray Rackham: Traditional norms are being questioned, but I did want to mention. It's quite timely that we're having this discussion now because we are in the midst of political chaos in terms of tariffs. So even though H1B, Buy American, Hire American debate is ongoing. Now, if you want to sell it here, make it here is still very much part of the American political discourse.

Ray Rackham: And I don't know if you remember, Emma, but we talked a little bit about, um, the, the possibility, or, or when President Trump was President elect Trump, we were talking about the possibility of Tearing up of multilateral agreements, and I made some comment that what would that do to bilateral agreements?

Ray Rackham: Um, would they be easy to be torn up and we're going to start again and we're going to use America as America PLC. I think we are seeing a little bit of that [00:10:00] and and again, immigration, free trade, trade agreements, they all. Work in one ecosystem, which is part of the global economy. And we're seeing this live in action.

Ray Rackham: It's, it's a fascinating time to, to be interested in mobility and immigration. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Right. And I think so much of what you're saying. So there's the visas that people need, talent need to go in and out of the U S but organizations, our clients, you know, many of them are reconsidering their global supply chain based on these potential tariffs implications.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Um, the idea. 

They really are. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So a lot of our clients are thinking about this, not just in regards to moving people with a particular type of visa, but their global supply chain, where they're making products, where they can move them to. And that means their workforce or their factories or their, you know, Shared service centers may need to relocate as well.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So it's a really unstable time. And a lot of organizations, I think we're holding their breath and waiting, which is, I think, [00:11:00] where we were at last time when we spoke, waiting to see what the US did and whether that would have global implications for them. 

Ray Rackham: It is already having quite significant global implications for for our clients, and I think it really is the demonstration of a globalized world and mobility is not just about the ensuring someone can cross a border.

Ray Rackham: You know, Global Mobility has always been considered to be the, the organization within an organization that does exactly that. Global Mobility now needs to be thinking about a whole lot of other things that sit entirely outside and beyond what we traditionally believed to be possible. Was part of our remit.

Ray Rackham: Um, it might sound scary, but it also means that global mobility has a slightly larger and wider seat at the 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: table, 

Ray Rackham: which we've been talking about 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: for [00:12:00] years, right? Like, and I think there was definitely post COVID there was a, Oh, mobility will be in charge of, Extended business travelers and our remote work population, because because of those immigration understandings and that seat at the table is something we've been looking for for a really long time.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So, the opportunity, I think, you know, rose post covid, they were saying mobility will have more of a part to play an extended business travelers or in our remote work population because of those. visa and immigration implications. When are you going to be taxed? When have you, you know, spent too many days in a country and, um, and causing immigration issues?

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And I think the conversation is, is hot on that. Again, it's back up. We're seeing, you know, choices towards commuters or to extended business travelers instead of assignments in some locations that might be considered a little politically risky because of all these, um, shifts that have been happening.

Ray Rackham: Yep. Absolutely. I think the [00:13:00] interesting thing that I would say from a kind of 30, 000 feet perspective is we anticipated that mobility and mobility in the relocation and industry seat would remain at the table after COVID. There was that slight wane, you know, skill shortages is still very much a big thing, but there was that, that where the business was, Where, or when I spoke to mobility professionals, they'd say, oh, it looks as though our seat's being kind of pulled slightly to the left of the table now, or slightly to the right of the table.

Ray Rackham: And what, what super election year has done is really put that seat very much squarely in the center again. And there's a lot of, of business, uh, attention on the ability to move people quickly, safely, and, and securely 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: because the need hasn't gone away. The complications there about doing it, you know, are increasing, but the need is still there.

So, 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: let's sort of take a step back. I know we started on the U. [00:14:00] S. just because that was the big election that happened after we last spoke. And of course, a lot of countries, as we said, were waiting and watching to see where that went before they made some decisions. But let's look more at the global immigration landscape.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Not everyone's doing exactly the same thing. Um, Like you said, most elections went against, against incumbents lean towards the right, generally. But all of them, whichever way they were leaning and whatever has happened since, kept immigration at the center of the topics they were discussing. It was always really in the thick of things.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So what are some helpful examples that you can give globally about what we're seeing protectionism versus more open borders? You know, how is anyone doing things differently or similarly to the U. S. I suppose. 

Ray Rackham: Um, it's very interesting, actually, because immigration and the kind of economic impact of of immigration does sit very squarely in the center of most socio economic policies the world over.

Ray Rackham: Um, now, Emma, you're really good at these sayings, and there is often there is a [00:15:00] saying that I always misquote about the wise person or the kind person or the generous. I can't remember what it is, but they plant the tree under which they will never sit in the shade, i. e. there's kind of policy needs to be put in place to provide sustainable solutions to the socio economic issues of a country for generations to come.

Ray Rackham: And there's a little bit of an argument there in terms of immigration policy because in the UK, for example, um, we've had, um, a new administration, uh, under Prime Minister Starmer and the Labour Party. And there seems to be the, the, the push to address or reduce net migration by making it easier and better and more welcoming for domestic workers, for those who, who are resident workers, uh, for British or one of a better word, British nationals to fill those roles.

Ray Rackham: And so there's been a lot of, um, talk about workplace [00:16:00] policies and education and training. Now, for those of us who've been doing this for as long as I have, We've been saying for years that the way to tackle the reduction of migration is to invest in education. And we have had in the UK, apprenticeship schemes and levies put to employers who want to attract migrant or foreign workers.

Ray Rackham: But this is a long term strategy at a point where, as I said earlier, 14 percent of the Of the nation believes that there should be no immigration at all. So the Starmer, the Starmer administration really finds itself at this kind of philosophical junction between acknowledging the needs and the very real need to address skill shortages, whilst at the same time, looking toward.

Ray Rackham: encouraging a greater amount of investment for resident workers. Now, if you think of it again, that, that in itself is one [00:17:00] enormous global mobility policy because that's what most organizations try to do in terms of, of their work. But then if we look at other parts of the world, Denmark has taken almost, almost an opposite approach, addressing shortages by offering automatic three year job seeker.

Ray Rackham: Permits for migrants, um, there has been the example of across the kind of African nations of looking at greater cross border collaboration and similar kind of easy visa pathways. On the flip side, we have Saudi Arabia and and most of the. Nations in those in that Gulf area, looking at policies to make sure that resident workers and they're kind of, they're usually called Isation, Saudi Isation, Emirati Isation, you know, mandating the private sector have a certain percentage of workers.

Ray Rackham: Of workers who are, who are nationals. Um, the interesting one [00:18:00] for me will be Canada. I spent most of 21, 22, half of 23 saying, you know, Canada has the most progressive immigration policy. It was dealing with the aging population and skill shortages by opening its borders. And we're seeing a little bit of a backtrack of that, you know, in this latter half of 24 2025.

Ray Rackham: I think what the, the kind of global lens is saying, rather like a mobility policy, anything is possible and nothing makes sense. We're looking towards a turbulent time of there will be change and some of those norms will be disrupted. And I think a lot of that goes back to the outcome of a 61 percent of those who could have voted, voted in that super election year.

Ray Rackham: There is palpable need for change, be it, and you can argue this [00:19:00] for hours, whether or not it's a, a need for change that has been conflated by social media or by the mainstream media or whatever it is, governments are reacting to the mandates they have been given by the electorates. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Right. And I think we're going to see 

Ray Rackham: more of that.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: A lot of that on the ground is that the feeling of inflation, even in places like the U. S. where actually it came greatly under control, just the sense of, over time, the fact that it's still much more expensive to buy standard products and people feel that. And on a day to day basis, they care more about that than some of the big Questions, like you said, it's hard to imagine the shade of a tree that you're planting right now.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: I always think about it. I certainly don't know the specific phrase, but I always think about it in regards to cathedrals, people of the medieval period who built cathedrals, knowing it would be three, four generations and that it was worthwhile to do it now for the future. I think it's really hard to make people think about that future, which we know about.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: You know, the, the definite, the [00:20:00] skills shortage looming that we will talk a little bit more detail about later. I mean, we need to have talent coming in. It can't all be with our aging populations. It can't all be domestic. It can't all be just educated and upskilled. Um, but the feeling on the ground is, is so against it that it's almost like working against your own best interests.

Ray Rackham: We live in a world of immediacy. And I, and I think the political will now is to respond to an immediate need for us who deal with migratory policies that go back. You know, and I'm not talking a long time or relatively speaking 1971, you know, if you're looking at that, the, the migratory policies that we are feeling the impact of some of those policies now, um, and the benefits, dare I say, that I think we, again, we sit in a world that spins on a different axis.

Ray Rackham: And so [00:21:00] for mobility professionals, it really is a case of preparing for that whole manner of change. As you, as you said, the businesses are thinking. In different ways about how they operate. So we have to, we have to be agile and we have to be in tune with that. We have to respond to that. And in some ways, I think we're going to be making a lot more immediate decisions.

Ray Rackham: Yeah, I think you're so right. And 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: I love that metaphor you used, you know, a nationwide mobility policy. That's what we're looking at. But then when you go back down to the micro, the clients we're talking to every day, yes, they know that they need to be moving people for their future business needs. But the person who's in that hot seat right now needs to cut costs, or they need to deal with an immediate challenge of getting a group hotspot, something like 

Ray Rackham: that.

Ray Rackham: Sorry, go ahead, Emma. Yeah, 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: no, no, absolutely. Go ahead. 

Ray Rackham: Part of our 2025 [00:22:00] and beyond strategy is exactly that. A lot of mobility professionals at this moment are scratching their heads to say, how can we build long term and I'm talking small, less sustainable, but long term, sustainable mobility policies when we are in a period of crisis.

Ray Rackham: Governmental flux wherever we are in the world and the businesses say we need to reduce costs. All of those things, three things, they don't always sit as great bedfellows. So it's, it is time to listen to the experts to start to plan and to think and act. Yeah, and you'll, you'll hear this a lot from me wherever I am in the world.

Ray Rackham: Think of 2025, but importantly, think of beyond. And that's what I'm asking mobility professionals to do. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Good philosophy. So we've already touched on geopolitics a little bit. Let's like, expand into this a bit more. We said, you know, a lot of the changes we're seeing aren't just to do with the election rhetoric and the campaign promises, but this overall shifting geopolitical [00:23:00] landscape that you've talked about.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Um, I mentioned, I think we've seen some sectors pulling out of hotspots. You know, we have some people with less assignments into China. Um, maybe moving towards other APAC hubs in case, um, depending on what industry they're in, some more so than others that might feel the burn if, if something happened politically.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And we've seen, I think you also mentioned some, you know, minimum wage thresholds for visas around the world, um, and some clients not being able to bring in lower cost talent for those more manual jobs. Like you said, the idea of encouraging companies to hire local or increase pay for those people who are being transferred morally.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Fantastic. But as I said, press strings are tight. It's potentially changing the nature of global talent models and whether people are bringing folks in or not. So what's your perspective on how immigration is changing to suit maybe geopolitics as a sort of spinoff from from that political year? 

Ray Rackham: I think immigration and immigration policy.

Ray Rackham: It's always a [00:24:00] reaction to the geopolitical climate at any given time. If you go back to the very early stages of, or the very early phases of migratory policy, and I'm talking kind of for the US Ellis Island days, and, and if you, if you go back to when immigration law was codified, it is innately discriminatory.

Ray Rackham: And, and one of the things that you have to. Consider when you look at the wider geopolitical landscape is immigration is going to react to the, to the relations between countries. So we have the renaissance of an East West divide, um, and be that in trade tensions, be that wherever you find that geopolitical friction, immigration is going to [00:25:00] react to that.

Ray Rackham: So, There are, you know, there are questions around the legitimacy of executive orders, not just in the, in the Trump administration, but just orders throughout governments who, who are looking to respond to immediate geopolitical issues by banning, um, migration, be it in the short term. And we saw that in the previous Trump administration, the Muslim bans, you know, like they're.

Ray Rackham: And that that conversation has reared its head in a very quick and unique way, um, closing the border, um, is always a solution to a problem where you are looking to the outside world. Um, or the issues in the outside world to fix the problems that you have inside the board. So I think immigration policy is going to react to this changing geopolitical landscape.

Ray Rackham: Now we're seeing the tensions between US and China. 

We 

Ray Rackham: [00:26:00] have seen this week the The tensions in trade tariffs between Canada and Mexico, you know, like, and the fact that it brings instability for organizations, right? Tariffs are imposed and at the 11th hour lifted or temporarily suspended. How can organizations operate in a way where we have such a globalized economy?

Ray Rackham: Um, and I think that. that when you start to look at immigration policy at a governmental level, it will always react to those tensions. Businesses are always going to be caught in the middle. Tough decisions about how to, how and where to invest, where the workforce should be placed, even down to if you have long term mobility policies, how useful are they to you?

Ray Rackham: Given the shifting sands of a political discourse, um, bilateral agreements, [00:27:00] we've seen them being torn up this week. Um, we're also seeing new partnership agreements, UK Taiwan partnership in renewable energy. Um, these, these bilateral agreements, they essentially drive innovation. Some might say progress.

Ray Rackham: Um, and some might say they start to tie the hands. So immigration policy that's aligned to bilateral agreements. Will will be considered good and bad, depending on where you sit on the discourse. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah, absolutely. Another interesting element that you sort of made me think about. I know we're going to dive into a bit more lately, but I think it's such a crossover.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: We have to at least bring it up now is is risk preparedness and crisis management. In some of these global geopolitical shifts, you know, that conflict and so on. So I I've seen it and a huge surge across our clients to at least have contingency plans in place. And a lot of that is the immigration elements.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: It's not only how to communicate, how to make [00:28:00] sure we know where your people are, which was the post, you know, the COVID challenge, knowing where your people were in the world as well. But. Where can we get them to based on their unique family situation, their passports, where were the safe pathways, which countries are opening their borders, which are not in case of this type of an emergency.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: And that means preparing for the geopolitical emergencies and conflicts, which, of course, we're seeing more on the ground. But but I think also, you know, sustainability issues, environmental crises, um, so on, so forth, or another pandemic, potentially, you know, it's something that will fall on the table. On mobility and on a nuanced understanding of immigration options So I think companies at least many of them are looking at planning for that in advance 

Ray Rackham: We had and I mean if you look back at those Particular things that have happened that have impacted mobility.

Ray Rackham: COVID was the, was the level. Um, yeah, you know, if we go back 10, 12 years prior to COVID, you're looking at the [00:29:00] Icelandic, um, ash cloud, which disrupted Try and say that volcano next. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: That's your tongue twister for today. 

Ray Rackham: I've never been able to. It's one of those things that I always pause and think, should I bring this up because I cannot say that.

Ray Rackham: Someone's going 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: to challenge me to this. I think most of us can't. 

Ray Rackham: But if you think about it, that disrupts the supply chains and the movement of peoples around the world. Um, we had, we had, um, you know, SARS before COVID. COVID was the one that shut down. It did give mobility that place at the table. And when you start to think of repatriations, um, that is something that mobility has always had to be involved in, predominantly around conflict.

Ray Rackham: And what we're seeing now is the advent of, new types of immediate repatriations that do not exist solely and squarely because of conflict. Now, I trained under one of the most incredible [00:30:00] immigration lawyers, Julia Ronslow Cole, who really did spearhead and lead the way in moving people out of areas of conflict when it occurred, and being kind of the first in to make sure that those corporations, their employees were safe.

Ray Rackham: Um, and, and I think the mobility industry owe huge gratitude and debt to Julia for the work that she did. There we all have to carry that on as well and make sure that, um, mobility policies are in place to, again, this word agility to be agile to the changing world and forget election laurels. Absolutely.

Ray Rackham: Forget President Trump. Forget Prime Minister Stama. But just think about making sure that your policies can expect the unexpected. Quickly. And that's partnering 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: with immigration partners because it's moving so quickly. I don't know an organization that has an up to date, informed and everything globally, [00:31:00] you know, internal team that can handle the pace of change.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So that is about partnering and partnering well and making sure those communications are happening smoothly. 

Ray Rackham: And I think it's why we're always so happy to join you, Emma, and to partner with SEVA, because relocation itself is not just about getting people in, it's about getting people out. And I think when you look at all of those.

Ray Rackham: Um, organizations that form part of a mobility's relocation strategy, be it a tax provider or social security provider, relocation goods, all of those things really do have to work harmoniously to get it right when someone is relocating in, but equally have to work harmoniously. when you are extracting people.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Almost more so because that's when people are 

Ray Rackham: panicking 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: and when people are panicking, you know, that's where making sure it went smoothly. 

Ray Rackham: Back to that word immediacy, you know, that, you know, immediacy used to be the, [00:32:00] the, the, it wasn't the norm, you know, and as I say, I can think of those conflicts where, when I was a young immigration lawyer, we would be trying to deal with people getting out of, of areas accommodated, it was always very immediate.

Ray Rackham: I think now, The immediacy has gone beyond conflict and looks around to the world around us at a time where climate agreements are being torn up, where there is serious questions on sustainability. So again, we are charting uncharted territory here. Um, but we must do so as a harmonious community. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah, absolutely.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So with Uncharted Territory, we are heading that way, skills crisis wise. So that's a good segue from me. Um, but we've talked about it, you've sort of dropped it in enough because it's such a central element of global talent strategies and of immigration. So there is an aging population issue, a looming skills and talent crisis.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Some of this new UN data, it really highlights how huge this issue is. So two thirds of [00:33:00] countries are below the fertility replacement rate of 2. 1 children. Um, so they say by 2100, not even that far away, you know, that tree would already have some shade, that cathedral would already be built. Um, some major economies will fall by 20 to 50 percent.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So that may also mean that more than just that aging population dropping out of the workforce, we're looking at many of working age also being pulled out of the active workforce to maybe be carers of that aging population. So we've already mentioned, it seems like a bit of a contradiction to be shutting down borders or stifling immigration when this is the need.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So what are your thoughts on the immigration's role really in the skills crisis? 

Ray Rackham: It's a fascinating question, because if you look at, as you've said, at the end of this century, we will have economies falling by up to 50%. By mid century, we're going to have a talent deficit of kind of 80 plus. [00:34:00] Million around the world.

Ray Rackham: Um, 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: uncharted territory, 

Ray Rackham: the two really do not compute that we have a huge talent shortage looming in the immediate future, relatively speaking, with economies really being impacted by it in the mid to long term term future. And yet such incredibly populist protectionism. Um, what I'm seeing worldwide is the, the flip side of immigration policy.

Ray Rackham: And I always talk about this, the revitalization of economies by using, uh, immigration pathways, uh, pathways that Japan is a great example of this, um, dealing with aging populations in that way. But then some other countries, particularly in, in APAC, Malaysia, Um, looking to this too. I think the issue that we have here is it really does depend on the political will, how much you can use immigration to to revitalize your [00:35:00] economy.

Ray Rackham: However, that's why immigration exists in terms of what we do in terms of the global migration, the movement of skilled people around the world, it is to contribute to the domestic economy of of those people. Um, those countries that those individuals are traveling to. So I think where we sit is again on the on the cusp of a philosophical debate on how much immigration will play a part in steering away from that skill, that global skill shortage, steering away from the destruction of economies used due to low fertility and aging populations.

Ray Rackham: In my mind, and you'd say, well, of course it will be because you've been doing this for 25 years, but it's the, it's one of the key solutions to it. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah. 

Ray Rackham: Um, how much that's on the public policy platform remains to be seen. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Right. Especially as we see, you know, the larger populations where the birth rate isn't suffering is, um, you know, sub Saharan Africa, but [00:36:00] so let's work on upskilling there and then relocate them over with bespoke visas.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: If you want to let me know. 

Ray Rackham: Absolutely, it really does lend back into that consideration that immigration in silo and not fix and provide a solution. Um, it can certainly help address the issue, but education, upskilling. Apprenticeships, all of those things that for successive governments almost worldwide, there has been massive underfunding, um, and this is an area where immigration and that together can help swerve some of the issues that we can see on the horizon.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah, I think just as a quick segue before we wrap up, although, of course, I could talk to you all afternoon. Um, I think there is an element that we've touched on throughout, you know, with the crisis management with geopolitics and with attitudes and, [00:37:00] and. A political discourse around immigration about duty of care and employee safety, um, especially where, um, if you're relocating someone to a location where there's this in this really strong populist, anti immigrant sentiments that have been, you know.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: All across the news, and there's this perception that if you have a foreign accent, or you've come from somewhere else that maybe you've stolen someone's job or their hospital beds or their school places, they might not get a warm welcome. And, you know, that's another challenge, even if the visa situation is Is is manageable, even if you can get them in, they may, in fact, feel threatened in that location or unsafe for some reason.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So, I suppose, setting expectations supporting with language or intercultural training could be sort of helpful ways to assist navigating that, especially at a particularly tense time. 

Ray Rackham: Well, I think it's time to tear the band aid, or if you're in the UK, the plaster off, and I think it's, I think it's time to say that mobility has always been very good at [00:38:00] preparing culturally for a move.

Ray Rackham: The anti immigration sentiment within a country now must form part of that cultural training. We have seen time and again, assignees that I didn't realize that I would be considered unpopular for being, being here. And I think Mobility has always done really well. And there are tools out in the market that you can get that gives you, do you tip?

Ray Rackham: Or do you add a gratuity to this, you know, in this location, et et cetera. Typical. Now we have to think about the Yeah, typical. Just we could have a podcast on that, but, but now can we not? It's so 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: stressful. , no . 

Ray Rackham: But, uh, but we have to think about the anti-immigration sentiment in any location where you are assigning, uh, your employees.

Ray Rackham: I think, um, another part of this duty of care. Consideration is we are seeing wholesale tearing up of D. [00:39:00] E. and I at a governmental level. Now, this is after progressive years of incorporating D. and I into mobility policies and even for mobility professionals in choosing their providers have D. and I as part of the procurement process.

Ray Rackham: My question to the mobility community at the moment is what what is that? What is that kind of pan cross governmental? approach to D& I change going to do to the policies that you have. Um, it's a, it's a very difficult and emotive subject, but something that we should be thinking about now. Now, another thing that's very, very close to my heart is the LGBTQ plus individuals who are looking to leave countries and who, who, where they, they may feel unsafe or they may feel there is growing.

Ray Rackham: There is growing distrust or disenfranchisement. Again, it's a mobility question that maybe we haven't had to think about [00:40:00] before, but we're going to be thinking about more now. The world is spinning on a different axis and because we, as a community, Our playground is the global stage. So we have to acknowledge that different spinning axis and try to reframe how we behave and what we do to protect and sustain a duty of care to our employees and assignees.

Ray Rackham: It's really as simple as that. 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah, and I think it ties back in really neatly to what we were saying earlier, you know, that that immigration is fundamental to these business models success. And so is diversity and inclusion, whether you call it that or not, whether it's an official campaign or not. The fact is that we need diverse perspectives.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: The data, the evidence is absolutely clear that that means you'll get better results. You know, returns, better market share, better innovation, more agility. You need in a you need different perspectives to be agile. And that's exactly what we're saying is so important right now on. And I think [00:41:00] actively stamping that out would be detrimental to any global business.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So I think it just needs to be done in a new way. But still, I think companies really need to show their support. I mean, like you said, people, LGBTQ folks leaving, particularly trans people in the U. S. Who just are no longer recognized as as a gender that they are. They're now, there are places where it's illegal for them to go to a bathroom, um, of their choosing, you know, um, where they might get beat up in the other one.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: So it's definitely a time to consider leaving. Yeah. Well, 

Ray Rackham: as, as an immigration practitioner, when the, when the, uh, order on the gender identity came out, that one of the first things that we had was a, uh, a US, uh, immigration attorney, a renowned US immigration attorney saying, What does that mean for people who are out of the country wanting to return?

Ray Rackham: The fact that we're talking about citizens, um, in this way, um, and passport control forms part of the immigration debate. And, you know, and so it, it [00:42:00] really is a very live and very real question that we have to treat sensitively. And remember that at the end of every passport, at the end of every visa and every work permit is a human being.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Yeah. Oh, it gave me shivers. Oh, it's poetry. 

Ray Rackham: Yeah. That is what we all need to remember in everything we do. It's why I, it's why I came into this industry because I love to work with people. Um, and, and you look at the thousands of people that That we support every every year at the end of every single piece of paper, we push across our desk is a human being.

Ray Rackham: And that's 

Emma Dodwell-Groves: and more. So you're giving them the opportunity to meet human beings from a whole different part of the world to open their eyes and change their horizons. So it is pretty magical. And it's, you know, scary, but interesting what's happening. And certainly we're at the crux of it. So, um, What I'm going to do is try and wrap this up here.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: I think overall, what I've been hearing today, I mean, I [00:43:00] love the think about the human at the end of every paper trail in immigration. Anyone who who thinks of it as, you know, a compliance topic and not one that is a has has a strong human element to reconsider that hearing your words, but also, you know, we've been hearing how a Influx, the immigration landscape is perceptions, practicalities.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: They're complex. They're even contradictory. We've seen a lot today. And I, you know, reemphasize that it's more important than ever to be agile, like you said, and to partner with your immigration providers to stay on top of all that. But before I let you go, I'd like you to share a top tip. What do you have for our listeners?

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Right? 

Ray Rackham: We, we held a client advisory board where we gather some of our clients together and I'm going to listen to them rather than giving you my tip. And I think that the tip that they, they said was to remain astute, remain agile and keep close to your [00:44:00] advisors. And I really do believe it is the time for us as a community to collaborate, partner, show respect to each other, um, to, to, to go through 2025 and prepare ourselves for the beyond.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Amazing. That was brilliant. Whether your words or someone else's. Thank you, Ray. It was such a pleasure to have you on our show again. And for our listeners, thank you for listening to Serva Soundbites. If you enjoy our show, please click subscribe and share and be sure to come back next time. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to drop us a note.

Emma Dodwell-Groves: Until then, this is Emma and Ray. And don't forget, Serva provides everything needed to move talent and deliver experience. See you next [00:45:00] [00:46:00] time.