4-5 The Leadership Lens: An Honest Conversation with TÜV SÜD’s CMO, Liz Fendt

Women are shattering glass ceilings and redefining what it means to be a leader. 

In this episode, we have invited Group Chief Sales & Marketing Officer and Managing Director at TÜV SÜD to share more about her personal career trajectory and life experiences. 

Join Sirva Soundbites host, Kate Rothwell and Liz Fendt, as they talk about what it takes to be a leader in the modern world, finding your true passion and the importance of maintaining your personal identity outside of work.

Liz Fendt is the Chief Sales and Marketing Officer at TÜV SÜD. She has been with the Group since 2001, including 13 years at various locations in Asia. During this time, Liz Fendt built up and managed the marketing and sales management team for the Asia-Pacific region. Most recently, as Chief Marketing Officer, she was responsible for the global marketing of the services group.

Kate Rothwell has been an accomplished global mobility professional for more than 25 years. She joined Sirva in 2011 as Director, Global Account Management, bringing experience in account management, operations, and leadership from her roles in global mobility teams and as a service partner. 

If you have any questions or feedback, we welcome you to drop us a note at soundbites@sirva.com.

Get in touch with us: soundbites@sirva.com

Transcript

You are listening to Sirva Soundbites, the official podcast of Sirva, a leading global relocation management and moving services company. Let's get started. Hi, welcome to Server Soundbites, where we aim to connect, inform, educate, and entertain our listeners. I'm Kate Rothwell and I'm a director of account management at Server.

Women are shattering glass ceilings and redefining what it means to be a leader. They bring to the table diverse perspectives. Innovative approaches and collaboration, driving positive change in organizations and communities worldwide. At Server, we want to inspire our listeners, and so for this episode, we have in invited Liz Fent, who is the group Chief Sales and marketing officer and managing director at TUV SUD to share more about her personal career trajectory and life experiences.[00:01:00] 

Would you like to introduce yourself for our listeners please? I will, I will. Thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be with you, Kate, and to have this opportunity, um, to spend some time sharing some thoughts I have with the, the listeners. So my name is Liz Fendt, and as you correctly pointed out, I am responsible for sales and marketing.

I'm an e-commerce at, it's a, um, a very large organization in the testing, inspection, and certification industry. Um, I am part German. My father's German. I'm part British, my mother's British. And um, my claim to fame is I have almost been to 100 countries globally and lived in quite a number of them as well.

Almost, almost. Thanks Liz. So I know that you've got some great experiences to share and I'm absolutely positive that our listeners are gonna be really inspired too after listening to our podcast. So let's dive right in. For starters, perhaps you could tell us a little bit about your early years growing up, the influences that you had in your [00:02:00] life.

Thank you. So, um, I think I had a different childhood perhaps to perhaps many others. I grew up in the 1970s in the uk and my mother had quite a leading position, um, at British Telecom and was responsible for a large team, and a large proportion of that team were male. I. So I do recall growing up, listening to my mother, talking about her leadership responsibilities and also the challenges she faced and she instilled, I think, from the very moment I could really think and talk and listen to my mom, um, a mantra which is Know your value.

And I think that that is something that's carried me through and her voice through the rest of my professional life and also my personal life. Um. Then my parents, uh, split up when I was 11 and I then moved in with my dad. 'cause my mother was extremely busy at work. So I had a huge male influence on me between the ages of 11 and 18.

And I think that was very interesting as well. I mean, I think I had this strong female, um, mentor in my mother and a role model of [00:03:00] course. And my father, somebody who took. A very caring view of raising me. And also I had things that I was exposed to that perhaps a lot of other women weren't. For example, we talked a lot about politics.

He taught me how to play football. Um, he took me on a lot of adventure holidays and I think that's also stood me in good stead. Um, so for me, if I'm in a, a male environment, I don't feel uncomfortable in many ways. It feels very comfortable to me as well. So I feel I can operate very well in both female and male groups, um, and also taught the talk.

I can't claim that I'm particularly interested in football, but I can say that I'm very, very interested in all of the other things that he taught me, geography, politics, and to this day, I can camp. Anywhere wild, because that's something he taught me every summer. We went, uh, walking, extensive walking.

We're not talking one and a half hours, we're talking every day, six weeks, eight hours a day. So he taught me a lot about resilience. He was extremely fit. Um, and also taught me the, the value of being [00:04:00] in the present moment, which is something that I also hugely value in what he's taught me. Wow. That's, that's really incredible.

And I think, um, I think really different to. Many of the experiences that some of the people growing up in the seventies had, um, as I did, and having such strong ties with a woman leader in your life, um, as well as your father, have clearly had a great impact on, uh, on how your life developed. I think our listeners might be keen to hear one of the stories that you shared with me as we were preparing for this podcast, one of taking great career leaps of faith whilst also taking care of newborn babies.

Yes. It's a, it's a, it's a story I like to, to tell because I think it demonstrates a few things. So I'll explain the story first. So I was literally just off, um, my maternity leave. I was living in Singapore at the time. Maternity leave is relatively short in Singapore. Which in many [00:05:00] ways I'm very grateful for because it enabled me to continue with my career.

And then I was at a watershed moment. I had an offer to take, uh, to go from, um, responsibility of, um, Asia Pacific Marketing to take it to a global level, which was huge. You know, you had a one-time opportunity in this organization to take responsibility for all of the marketing organization globally. My daughter was all of six weeks old.

My second daughter, my first daughter was, uh, two years old. So two very, very young children. And it was a moment where I thought, Hmm, what do I do? I mean, there are two options, right? One is you decide for it, one is you decide against it, and I'm sure there would've been other opportunities, but I felt it was the one that I've been really waiting for for such a long time, and it was a golden opportunity.

So I jumped in. Um, and I, um, I, I made it work, uh, making it work, looked like this. Um, there was an invite to a meeting in Istanbul. I traveled to Istanbul. I was still breastfeeding my second daughter, and I was in the [00:06:00] plane and pumping the milk. Having to throw it away. You can't do anything with milk in a plane.

Anyway, I was in Istanbul for three days, um, and also had to do the same thing every three hours. Went to go to the hotel, pump the milk, threw it away, and then effectively had also pre pumped the milk before I went to Istanbul in order to have sufficient milk supplies for my little daughter, not to have to take formula in the meantime.

And I think that that's a story of. You know, A, deciding which path you want to take and B, it's not going to be easy. That was not easy. And I think a lot of things that, you know, sub, you know, ensued weren't that easy, but what I decided to do was play a long-term game, or at least the midterm game, to say, if I'm going to take this role, it enables me to continue in my career.

Rather than taking a step away from it or a pause, which in my view was perhaps not the right thing to have done. I'm not saying it's the not the right thing for everybody, but for me at that point in time, I felt it would stand me in good stead and it would have [00:07:00] long-term benefits. So I did continue. Um, I hopefully made a decent success of the global marketing gig.

Um, and then when take on further portfolios later. Wow. I'm sure that story is really going to resonate with plenty of the mothers who are listening to our podcast. Thank you for sharing it. I think it's really important to build a support network that helps us manage all aspects of our working and personal life.

What were some of the things that helped you in that transition of getting back to work whilst also looking after two children? I, I, I always say huge shout out to, um, my team. Um, there were moments where, you know, I, everybody who has young children experiences this. I came to work with such sleep Def deficit in some cases.

I mean, I've really found it a struggle to even get my sentences together, um, at the early stages. And there were two team members in particular who. We're just there for me. I mean, that's what a team is [00:08:00] about, right? We're not always going to perform to a hundred and percent. There are going to be moments where even the boss in my particular case, isn't going to be able to function as well as I normally did and do.

Um, and they held me, they carried me through that, those moments, those days. Um, and they've stayed with me and I've stayed with them for now 18 years. Um, you know, and I hopefully have supported them as they did. Me back then. I think that's one thing to say. Um, I think another thing is you've got to fix your infrastructure.

I mean infrastructure, I just talked, talked to at the topic of work and home infrastructure is also equally as important. Um, and I think for me, I. Through working full-time in Singapore, it enabled me to pay for full-time support, which was also a, of course, it was cost costly, but it enabled me to continue to go back to work and become a role model for my daughters.

Again, playing a bit of a mid to long-term game thinking, you know, who do I want to show up as for my two daughters? So at home I arranged [00:09:00] things such that there was somebody. In full-time care of my children so that I wasn't carrying that burden of mother guilt. Um, which still is, was there not is there now, but was there at the time.

But I felt that it was, you know, good for me to know that they were well looked after. I knew they were in good hands, they were in good care. Um, and that I was doing the best thing that I could do to support them financially and also emotionally, and also to, to show to them that these things are possible.

I wanted to be such, like my mother was a role model to my two children. So clearly having a work persona is really important, but what's about outside of work? Growing up in the seventies, there was this idea of having it all, um, both financially being a career person as well as having a family. And a lot of times people felt that they couldn't be a leader as well as a parent, and do both of those things well.

How do you balance, [00:10:00] um, the outside, uh, life with work, being able to be a whole human being, if you like. Um, being a mother as well as a leader, I. This is something I hugely advocate for, um, in the sense that I feel that we can be the best version of ourself as, as a professional and the best version of ourself as a mother if we have our own identity as well.

You know, I have my work persona, Liz. I have my mother persona, Liz, and I also am Liz. The photographer, at least the amateur photographer. I'm definitely Liz, the dancer. Um, I have friendships that I have, um, built and maintained throughout the entire of my life who I. You know, these are, these are women, but also men who I absolutely treasure as people who are very important to me.

Um, I take care of them. They take care of me as well, and they provide me with perspective. I think it's all about getting sufficient distance from certain things in order for you to show up as the best version of yourself at that [00:11:00] point in time. So what I mean by that is, for example, now. Um, I'm going at work through a very large transition with the organization and it's quite a heavy responsibility I'm carrying through this, um, transition period.

And thankfully I have my friends, I have hobbies at the weekend, um, and during the week, so for example, last night, I. I left the office, I went home, had dinner with my family, and then I went to dance for two hours. I, I genuinely do, do absolutely derive huge amounts of joy from dance, and it's something I advocate for is if you haven't found it yet, whoever's listened to this podcast, try and find what truly makes you deeply happy outside of your family, outside of the mother role and outside of your job.

I think it makes you ultimately a better. Um, professional and a better mother to have your own identity and to do more of the things that you genuinely love. I mean, the more I do my dance, my photography, I love reading. I wake up every morning at 5:00 AM every morning at 5:00 AM without fail and read for the first half an hour [00:12:00] of my day because it, it enables me to have this sort of sense of escapism.

I love reading. I love the stories I read. I feel I learn a lot and it gives me an avenue of peace and quiet and calmness before I start my my day. That's incredible. I think it's so important for people who are juggling multiple different roles to keep a healthy body and a healthy mind, and having that outside perspective, I think you rightly say that, um, that can help with being focused in your work life as well.

I. Maybe one of the other areas that we can touch on, Liz, is the topic of imposter syndrome. And this is something that potentially affects women to a greater extent, and it's the tendency to believe that they are incapable or not good enough to do the things that they want to do. Um. And that means that they put put up barriers and prevent themselves from doing those things [00:13:00] and achieving what they want to do.

What? What would be your thoughts on that? I think that you probably won't find anybody or many people who will be as honest about it as I am in the sense that. I felt definitely a sense of imposter syndrome before it had a label attached to it. I remember distinctly, you know, 20 years ago, my first, um, management meeting presentation, standing up on the stage, honestly thinking, where's the door?

You know, I'm just gonna run because clearly, you know, I, I don't belong here. I don't know if I have. The ability to translate what I want to say and if that's even valued and whether the audience will value what I have to say to them. I think I overthought it, which I definitely feel when I speak to male and female colleagues is something that primarily women tend to face a sense of overthinking.

It then becomes anxiety, which then becomes self-doubt. Um, and I feel all of that is very corrosive. Um, I. Definitely sit down quietly, at [00:14:00] least a week before anything major to think about what I genuinely have to say. And I always calm myself to say I'm the best person because I'm the knowledgeable person of this specific subject matter.

There's nobody in this room that knows this subject as well as I do. And therefore I definitely have a role and a and a place, and I have something to say. I. And I think there's other things that I've experienced, which does unnerve you. Right? I mean, I think if you're more junior in your role, I've had situations where people have interrupted me, not listened to me, not valued what I've said, not echoed or, or responded to it.

Mm-hmm. And these days I behave very differently myself. Um, I had an amazing coach who taught me, um, a concept of giving a pregnant pause. I think it's something I used to do 10 years ago, 20 years ago, was talk too fast. Um, and with talking too fast, it's ultimately difficult to actually understand what that person's saying.

Um, and in doing that, you're not really having that sense of gravitas or importance or, or significance. So in the meantime, I [00:15:00] say a lot less A and BI put pauses between the important things I have to say. And I also have enough confidence to contain or, or build and retain eye contact with the people I'm talking to.

And I think, for example, you've gotta find what enables you to keep your presence and your calmness. And everybody has their own individual style. And you know, I realize that for me, cracking the fear of public speaking was really about building conversations with the audience rather than thinking it's.

Me against them or them against me. And in doing that, I started conversing with the audience. So I'm not quite known to start a presentation by asking one or two questions. I think it gives me a sense of assurance that there are human beings in the audience. It gives me something to respond to. And the second thing I do is build a lot of eye contact with the people in the audience so it doesn't become just a solid mass.

And that's just one example of. How I've overcome imposter syndrome. So just to [00:16:00] recap, it's about really thinking calmly, quietly, to yourself. What are the points that I want to convey? Understanding that it's not about the volume, but it's about how much, what is the exact, what are the important points?

How do I convey those important points? And then thirdly, finding your own individual style in order to. Find mechanisms to be able to calm yourself. And a second example, I think I, um, I spoke to you and I spoke to you on the preparation for this was, um. The first time I sat in front of my team, I remember distinctly sitting in front of my team thinking they're expecting me to lead them.

And there was this sort of sense of like, oh my gosh. Um, again, I, I was almost one eye on the door thinking maybe I could just sort of run for the door. I mean, and then, you know, slowly but surely, and this is an evolution. It's not gonna happen overnight. I think all of us sort of hope for a magic wand and, you know, suddenly it's going to go away.

It's not, I mean, it's like absolutely anything Life in life, you've got to keep with it. You have to hustle. [00:17:00] 1% every day and put yourself out of your comfort zone in order to practice those skills. It would've been so easy for me to have said. I have fear of public speaking. Therefore, I will avoid any roles in involve public speaking.

But I wanted to lead. I knew that I could do it, and I wanted to do that so much that that became more important. And therefore I knew I had to get through it by practicing. So any opportunity that came up, I said, I'll raise my hand. I'll give the presentation, you know, and slowly and very quickly after a while, it's almost like a snowball.

Things improve. The more team members you lead, the more you feel you're equipped to lead. The more you stand on stage, the more you feel comfortable with standing on stage. So I think my advice to everybody would be, I. Get out of your comfort zone practice. Don't expect yourself to be perfect on day one.

Not even on day 100, but I can tell you 10, 20 years in, it's a walk in the park for me now to do these things, to lead large teams, to lead transition, to stand on stage. I feel extremely comfortable with it. And instead of looking for the door out, I can't wait to [00:18:00] get in the door and stand on station. Do those.

That's fantastic, Liz. Thanks for sharing and talking a little bit about. Co-parenting and obviously both parents have got a significant role to play, um, in the rearing of children and the workplace is changing and being more accommodative of, uh, those types of scenarios. Now it's undergone. Tremendous changes over the past years with companies offering parental leave to both parents and both parents also taking greater responsibility in childcare.

I think the pandemic saw a huge increase in both parents' ability to. To, for instance, collect children at the end of the school day, and there are legislative changes and frameworks that permit, if you like, parents to be more present and involved in bringing up children and building those important bonds with them.

I. What do you think are the [00:19:00] impacts of those changes? I think this goes back to my, um, original answer to your first question. I mean, the, the, the, the bond of a father to a child is so important. I. To be able to almost narrate and, and speak both gendered languages to understand how, um, the father works, the mother works.

To build a bond with both your mother and your father, I think is, you know, intangibly important and I've experienced the benefits of exactly that. As I said, really the first, you know, 10 years, my mother and my father, and then the subsequent, you know, good seven, eight years. Very, very strong father daughter bond.

And that stood me in huge good stead for the rest of my life. Um, I think it's great what's happening. Um, the fact that there's more paternal leave, that it's also societally more. Accepted is a huge step forward for both men and women. Men who want to take that. And I think for women who want to, to return to the workplace, um, [00:20:00] and I think each individual couple, it might be male, female.

Female, female, male, male, needs to find its own. Rhythm and that might also look different. I think there's also cases where no friends who, whose mothers have helped, whose, um, mother-in-law has helped, or the father-in-law or the father. I think whatever effectively works for you. In my case, as I mentioned, it was the third person was the maid.

Um, a nanny to, to the children, which was also fantastic, I think. Whatever. It's something that you need to make your ideal life model work is, is exactly what you should be thinking about way before you decide on starting a family. I think the most critical decision you'll ever make is the choice of a life partner, um, because it can make or break so much in your.

Your life, your, your professional decisions, your ability to do the things. For example, I talked about, I love having my hobbies. I, I talked about loving, you know, waking up at 5:00 AM having that time to myself. All of that would not [00:21:00] be feasible, where not to have a life partner in my life. Who is fully prepared to, to share the, the, the, not the burden, but the, the responsibilities, um, and the various tasks that we have.

And those are manifest. You know, we have, you know, we're now living in Germany. We have things like the washing, the cleaning, the cooking. Uh, you know, all of those things that constitute a family life with two children. We have a dog. Um, and it's something I think needs talking about very openly. There's no sense of who realistically will be doing X, who will be doing Y, who will be picking up the children, who will be attending the parents' evenings.

And we think it's extremely important that these things are not swept under the carpet or. Sort of thought, okay, we'll talk about that. When it happens, it's too late. I think it's a very important discussion to have and the more open the communication is, the better things will work through and work out.

Um, I started a women's network with two other fantastic women at this company, and we had about [00:22:00] one and a half thousand women in this women's network. And I'd say the majority of the, the people I spoke to when I asked about the challenges they're facing were exactly this topic. You know how to manage.

The, the home life and, and ensure a good balance. Um, and that's why I've come to the conclusion that the, the choice we make in a partner, um, and the choice we make in setting up our infrastructure at home is perhaps the most critical choice for a woman who would like to balance both white, uh, work life and home life.

And derive joy from both. Thanks. And, and I think you're right. It probably goes back to what your mother instilled in you as well, right? Of, of knowing your value and connecting that, that kind of early experience together with the decisions that you make later in life. So Liz, you've moved and relocated several times.

Perhaps you could share for the benefit of our listeners how you dealt with all of the changes that come about with relocating and how you, [00:23:00] how really moving, brought or changed your views along the way. Yes, absolutely. Um, so I first relocated when I was, um, 18 within the uk. And at the age of 19, I relocated from the UK to Germany, um, when I was 32 actually, when I was, yeah, I was 31.

I took a year off from this company and traveled around the world for a year by myself. Then I relocated after that to, um, Taiwan, um, when I was 32. Subsequently, I relocated to Hong Kong and thereafter I relocated to Singapore and I've also spent a number of months in living in India in Bangalore. So. I would claim to know a fair bit about relocation and the, the trials and tribulations it brings with it.

Um, looking back on all of those decisions, every single one of them I think was an incredible decision. Um, I also relocated within Germany five times the various cities for different roles. Um, it was tough at times. [00:24:00] Um, the, the loneliness I think I felt in Taiwan and I also relocated from Munich to, um, LEIN at the beginning was absolutely real.

That sense of not knowing anybody, the, the long weekend that stretched ahead of me on a Friday when I said goodbye to the colleagues at work, arriving in Taiwan and being the only person who really only spoke English. Um, I was the only non, um, Taiwanese colleague in the office at the time. Um, there was no social media when I was there.

It was extremely lonely. Um, and extremely important for me because I think when you have tough times like that, it builds so much more empathy and sympathy for people in a similar situation. So, you know, having traveled extensively by myself, if I see a solo female traveler, I will go straight up to that person and make an effort to connect with them.

We have, and we do have a lot of colleagues relocating to this office from various places in the world by themself. I'm the person who extends, you know, an invitation to come and spend some time with me and my family [00:25:00] at the weekend. I'm very cognizant and acutely aware of how that feels. I. Because I've been through that myself.

So I think that build builds a sense of awareness, um, which is very important. Second is cultural identification and cultural understanding. I think with all of those experiences, and I told you, I, I, I travel extensively. It just, it's almost, I see myself as an adapter plug. I feel the more. I'm able to connect into other cultures, the more versatile I become and the better I become as a leader and as a human being.

I think the, the sense of understanding each other is of such critical importance, perhaps now more than ever before. And that stands me in good stead in so many different ways. Um, my advice would be get through the loneliness. Know that it's going to be, you know, a question of time before ultimately that will pass.

Sense, a sense of freedom. I mean, there is something absolutely [00:26:00] wonderful about being off the grid. I remember being in Bolivia in a bus, driving from one place to the middle of the desert thinking nobody knows where I am right now. I can really be any version of myself I want to be. And you can discover yourself if you're in a new environment.

You can rediscover yourself, you can almost set a new identity for yourself, and it's very liberating. Um, listen, listen to and I, I mean listen with your eyes and your ears. I think the only way you're going to truly understand a culture is by observing. Very, in very great detail how that culture operates.

And if the, you know, you are arriving somewhere new, you can have a lot of time in your hands, use that time wisely rather than spending the time indoors sort of feeling sorry for yourself. When I was in Taiwan, I walked the streets almost endlessly. I, I just watched, I observed, I took photos, I tried to build conversations with people.

Um, I read as much as I could. Um, when I relocated to Germany from the UK, I thought the first thing I need to do is really get [00:27:00] my arms around this language to the extent that I could be native. And I think if you understand a language, it's almost a key to unlocking a culture. And for me that was extremely important.

So I think culture is important to understand it. Getting past the initial loneliness. Being brave in reaching out. I mean, traveling, I traveled to, I did some crazy things. Yeah, I mean, it got crazy and crazy at the beginning. It was obviously, I wrote a list, it's almost a German version of myself. I wrote a list in Chile.

You know, I'm gonna see this temple, this church, whatever, whatever. And by the end of this year, I bought myself a horse in, in a Mongolia, and I was riding with this horse across the Goby Desert. Then I sold the horse, went to live with a family in Siberia. And spend some time by a Lake Bala. I mean, you just become so much more confident and self-assured with every moment that you choose to leave your comfort zone and reach out to understand and build your knowledge.

So all in all, an absolute advocate for, um, living abroad, moving abroad, and I think that this [00:28:00] probably won't be my last station also here in Munich, in my life. That's incredible. And roll onto country number 100, which I think is probably right around the corner. So Liz, you've given us lots of tips and insights, um, which are all marvelous.

Before I let you go, um, we do ask our guests to share one top tip. So what would you have for our listeners? I, my top tip would be, um, actively work towards. Doing something that genuinely scares you as often as you possibly can. And that could be, for example, last Sunday, two days ago, I was taking, um, a dance class and a new dance I'd never danced before.

And there were, there's leaders and followers in all of the dances. And there were not sufficient numbers of leaders and therefore I was, I signed up as a follower. And to become a leader in a new dance is quite a difficult thing to [00:29:00] do. After the first hour, I thought, I'm gonna switch. I'm going to become a leader for this dance and dance for the next five hours.

As a leader in a dance, I've never danced before and I felt, you know, the first 10 minutes you'd suddenly start thinking, well, I'm really proud of myself for doing this, and by the end of the day, I just thought I've learned so much more. By doing just a small thing that scared me for the first hour. I thought, no, I can't do it.

I can't do it, I can't do it. And by second hour I was like, no, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna put my hand up. I'm gonna switch sides and I'm going to do something actively that I feel is a stretch for me where I'm leaving my comfort zone. Um, and there are many examples of things that I've done. My feeling is every single time you face your fear and you get past the fear, you grow as a person.

And we are all talking about things like the growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset. You can only grow if you feel you're being stretched, um, and you're getting out of a comfortable environment and facing a fear. And that could be so many different things. And it's not that big things like jumping out [00:30:00] of an airplane, which I've also done because I had that as a fear, I thought, I'm not gonna let that stop me.

I'm gonna jump outta the airplane. And when the door finally came up, I thought, I'm going to jump first because otherwise I'm definitely never going to jump. And I think it's really about just thinking about what can I do actively to get out of my comfort zone to build the person I am, to become a better version of myself every single day.

That's great. Be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Thanks, Liz. It was such a pleasure to have you on our Absolutely. Once again, thank you for listening to Server Soundbites. If you enjoy your show, click subscribe and share and be sure to come back next time. If you've got any questions or comments, feel free to drop us a note at soundbites@sirva.com.

Until then, this is Kate and Liz. And don't forget, server provides everything needed to move talent and deliver the ultimate employee experience. See you next [00:31:00] time.