4-8 Mental Health Awareness Special: Navigating Mental Health in the Professional World

In honor of mental health awareness month, we have invited Dannielle Haig, Founder of DH Consulting to shed light on mental health in the workplace. In this episode, you will hear more about the different challenges prevalent in the workplace, identifying the signs and symptoms and some coping mechanisms to help you work through some of those big emotions. 

Dannielle Haig is a leading Business Psychologist, international speaker, and executive performance coach. Currently in the final year of her PhD, she is qualified in Clinical Psychology, Business Psychology, Psychotherapy, and Coaching. A female business owner and entrepreneur, Dannielle is trusted by some of the world’s biggest companies and works globally with senior leaders — from prime ministers to premiership footballers — helping them build resilience, lead with impact, and perform at their peak.

Luc Innocent began his mobility career as a household goods coordinator more than 22 years ago. He joined Sirva in 2011 as Global Account Manager. Luc has since held Director level positions in implementation and global account management, including his most recent promotion to Vice President of Global Account Management. 

Get in touch with us: soundbites@sirva.com  

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Sirva Soundbites S4E8 Mental Health Awareness Month with Danielle Haig & Luc Innocent

Luc Innocent: [00:00:00] Hi. Welcome to Sirva Soundbites, where we aim to connect, inform, educate, and entertain our listeners. I'm Luke Innocent, vice President of Account Management at Sirva. It's Mental Health Awareness Month, and we have specially invited Dannielle Haig, founder of DH Consulting. Danni is highly accomplished in understanding and analyzing human behavior in the workplace.

Her areas of expertise and academic research, line leadership personalities and mental resilience, which has seen her developing a psychometric with some of the world's leading business psychologists. Very impressive, Danni, and welcome to Sirva Soundbites. Really nice to have you.

Danni: It's such a pleasure to be here.

Luc Innocent: Uh, fab to have you. So why is mental health important? Well, may is mental health awareness month. We want to shed light on this topic, especially mental health in the workplace. What are some of the prevalent challenges? Identifying signs, symptoms, coping strategies and [00:01:00] self-care techniques and how organizations can help in creating a supportive culture for employees.

So Danni, when you agree to join us today, I did some research on your website and obviously a particular area that sparks some interest for me relates to the genetic testing you offer to your clients. So people can then understand more about their reactions, their resilience to stress. So to kick us off, is it a nature or is it nurture that gives us that, that mental resilience.

Danni: Such a good question. Uh, I mean, it's the age old question about everything to do with humans, isn't it? Is it nature or is it nurture? And I'm really sorry to tell you, a bit of both. It generally is a bit of both. Absolutely. We can tell from people's genetics, there's a huge amount of is predisposed, uh, uh, like kind of preordained and it's, and it's um, uh, you know, we're, we are kind of programmed at birth in lots of different ways genetically, but also of course, our [00:02:00] environment, our psychology, Eric.

Experiences in life all shape how we behave and how we think as well. So absolutely, uh, we are a mixture of both. I'm afraid to say. I wish I had a more definitive answer, but there is just so many different nuances that are important to consider when we are thinking about uh, uh, uh, psychology.

Luc Innocent: It feels like it's just another thing that I can blame my family for when it comes to how I deal with things.

Danni: You know, it's really funny you should say that because, um, you know, the fact that, uh, we, we talk about Freudian Psycho, uh, Freudian, uh, kind of perspectives on, on psychology so much, and Freud, he was really, um, we've all probably heard about, uh, of Freud who came up with the talking therapies, in particular psychoanalysis.

So I practice. And I'm qualified in psychodynamic therapy, so I use a little bit of Freudian work mixed in with other therapists. But the reason why, uh, Freud is so interesting is because [00:03:00] he looks back at what happened in our past and, and believes that shapes us the most. And so if you ever embark upon.

Really intense psychoanalysis. That's when you lie on, you know, you have got pictures lying on the couch talking about your childhood and going back and having all of these kind of like regressive memories and you're going through all of that. That's Freudian kind of psychoanalysis. Not all talking therapies are like that.

Um, but because that was so popular, that's what people think is. Is like the main important thing is to look back, blame your family, blame your parents. I know bullies at school, that kind of thing, but actually there are so many other approaches to, um, psychology, mental health, understanding that actually don't reflect on that at all.

I think it's a little bit, but actually a lot of things are about how do we approach life. Right now and how do we build forward instead of blaming everything on the past? But I, I, it is a really interesting thing and I could talk about that, that maybe that's another podcast for another day.[00:04:00] 

Luc Innocent: That's kind of more the, the nature side. I mean,

Danni: Yeah.

Luc Innocent: from my own personal perspective. I have seen a psychologist, but I went through a, I'm gonna say in a major life changing event when my sister passed away, and that was a whole different kind of trigger. So I guess when it comes to mental health, how do we identify those triggers?

Danni: Oh, big question. Um, I mean, I think mental health itself, I, I I, I deliver a lot of training uh, you know, for server

Luc Innocent: Mm-hmm.

Danni: lots of clients. And sometimes we have to go back to absolute basics when we, when we're talking about mental health, whether, when we're talking about lots of different things. So for example, what is mental health? So, I mean, if I said to you now, Luke, can you define mental health? I asked this question of attendees. So thousands of people a year. It's really hard to define these things that we talk about all the time. So I think defining that, first of all is the most important thing.

So when I think about mental health, um. I would describe it [00:05:00] as mental health being about how we think, it's how we feel and how we behave. it's our ability to handle stress, how we relate to other people, how we make decisions, and how we cope with the ups and downs of life. So just like physical health, everyone has mental health and it changes over time. And it depends on what's happening in our lives, our biology and our environment and ultimately taking care of it is as important as taking care of our bodies. So what can we take about that? How do we work out those triggers and what's going on? Mental health, well, remember, mental health is on a spectrum. isn't about not having mental illness. is what lots of people think it is. So mental health is being in good mental health. That's not what it is at all. It, it's about, it's, it isn't just the absence of mental illness. We all have ups and downs this spectrum depending on what's going on in our lives.

So sometimes we feel really strong and resilient. Other days we struggle a little bit more and that's [00:06:00] perfectly normal. So I think first of all, the most important thing is to understand what is mental health. That takes that away. A lot of the scaries, 'cause we're like, oh God, is this mental health? Is it not?

I. Actually we can all, when we understand what it is, that really helps. then understanding that we have ups and downs, and that's really normal. You are not necessarily in a crisis just because you're having a bad day. Sometimes you're just having a bad day. Um, so I think it's, it's really important that we know that.

But other than that, if you think that there are some things that are triggering certain responses, you don't quite feel yourself. No one knows you like you do. And you have to pay attention to yourself, and this is something that I say all the time. We don't pay enough attention to ourselves. We are so busy thinking about other people, thinking about what's going on in our lives, work, family, friends, relationships, all of these things.

I. We really need to pay a good amount of attention to ourselves. Learn about who you are, learn when something is a normal response for you, [00:07:00] when something isn't, and only then will you start to understand when things are particularly triggering. Maybe it's a big life event or maybe it's something small that's happening every so often. Um, but only you will know that when you start to pay attention to to you.

Luc Innocent: I can say it's that self-awareness, isn't it piece, I mean, almost. To your point, it might not necessarily be a major problem or don't think that your, you need to go and see a doctor or anything. It can be these minor little triggers that happen throughout the working day and it does having some resilience or a technique that allows you to kinda go, no, I can deal with that scenario now.

No problem. Horrible call. I've just had, can't believe someone kicked off. Maybe it wasn't a me problem, but a you problem. Um, but it's understanding those to then kind of go. Yeah. Do you know what? Okay. Today was a tough day, but I'm okay. It's not, it's that mental freshness to some extent. I, is it a personal thing for each person?

Yes. Um,

Danni: [00:08:00] for sure.

Luc Innocent: it's, and it, but it, it comes down to awareness and certainly, hopefully we can talk about a few of the, the fun things that people can do from a technique and things. Um, one of the things I know, obviously, you and I did a, a, a prep session, an intro last week, and kind of said hello to each other.

And one of the things that you mentioned is kind of understand and recognizing habits that you already, that people already have to self-soothe to be a bit more resilient. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they're all healthy ones. Um, going away and eating a plate full of donuts after you've had a stressful call with a client might not be the best way of coping from a mental health.

Danni: It might feel quite good at the time, but, uh, yeah, not, not good in the. Long, long run. Yeah, absolutely.

Luc Innocent: But yeah, I mean, are there anything, you know, what do you see or what do you normally recommend to people from a self-soothing mechanism that people can adopt?

Danni: Yeah, absolutely. Self-soothing is really interesting because they generally habits, we develop very young, uh, very early in life, and they become a part of us. We don't even realize [00:09:00] that we are doing it. Um, and there's lots of different things that it's actually just reminded me of. Uh, I was asked, uh, to write an article once or, or give a comment on, on people having, um, soft toys. In adulthood and something, there's a huge statistic, something like 70% of adults had, uh, kept a soft toy. Um, and apparently King Charles does as well. He has, uh, a cuddly toy that he is had since childhood and, and basically there's all sorts of self soothing techniques that we have, whether it's a soft toy, whether it's a plate of donuts. Whether it's, you know, that for that sugar kind of kick, whether it's, um, I dunno, a, a, a glass or two of wine, um, it could be all sorts of different things, biting your nails, all sorts of things. Um, and as absolutely they become so kind of intrinsic to who we are and, and a part of us that we don't even think about them.

We just do them naturally and they just. Calm us down. And of course, it isn't just that. It could be gambling, it could be shopping, it could be all sorts of things. Um, and, and there's lots of things that we do that kind [00:10:00] of to, to kind of calm down that nervous system once it's been spiked. Um, and absolutely some are definitely better for you than others. But what I would recommend is, first of all, acknowledging what your, your self-soothing techniques are. Are they good for you? Are they not? Are they actually harming you in the long run? Is there something negative there? And switching them out for something different? Um, and I'm going to say the obvious ones, I. Go for a walk. when we go for a walk, it's incredibly powerful and it's something that I definitely learned myself. I remember when, um, I first met my husband who's from the countryside, and we went back to, uh, where he came from to go and see, stay at his family home. And I remember his family were like, oh, should we go for a walk?

And I just said, why? because I just. I was like, why would I go for a walk? Why, where are we going? What for? What's the point? I've become a walker, Luke. I love going for a walk, uh, at, at the end of a stressful day. There is nothing more relieving [00:11:00] than getting outside and getting some fresh air and just going for a walk. And I find that at the beginning I'm walking very fast and I'm super tense and I'm like, rah. And then after about 30 minutes, I, I feel so much better. I'm so relieved. And there is a reason for that, not just the, um. of like the endorphins you get from physical exercise. Of course, we then get, uh, all the benefits from being outside and daylight and hopefully in the summertime.

But also it activates certain brainwaves within us, um, our, our beta brainwaves, and it's actually very similar to meditating when we walk. Um, and, and it activates these brainwaves whereby we can actually calm down and in the same way that we calm. When we meditate and it's incredibly powerful for us to walk.

And of course, if you think about it. Everything to do with humans is natural. It's na. We are nature. We are part of nature. We try and look beyond nature for these fantastic kind of solutions to things that are going on with [00:12:00] us, but we are one with nature and so actu, you know, engaging in nature, walking, exercising, doing all the things that we've been doing for millions of years are going to be some of the best things that we can do.

So that. To me is number one brilliant thing that we can do. Get outside, stretch your legs, walk ex, you know, get that, kind of, get the blood flowing. That is one of the best self-soothing kind of, uh, alternatives that there is for you, but you have to recognize that, that you're kind of engaging in, in these things.

I think something else that we touched on, Luke, which is also a kind of, when you've had a stressful day. Onboarding all of that emotion and taking it into your body, um, and, and then not doing anything with it. And, and that's when you kind of acknowledging that actually, as you've said. This is a you problem, not a me problem, but you can so easily take on board other people's emotions.

If they're having a bad day, you onboard it [00:13:00] and that's when those self-soothing techniques happen. You feel stuck at your desk. What can I do? I dunno. I can grab the donut, I can grab this, I can do whatever. There's not always the opportunity to get up and go out for a walk. Um, so there, there's lots of little things that we need to think about as well, um, that I think we

Luc Innocent: I think you highlighted something that, but certainly that happens in, in the workplace. There will always be those calls you have, whether it's with a client, an internal stakeholder, you know, whoever it may be. And then as you say that emotional transference, I. It is got nothing to do with you, but that person might be having a bad day.

If I look at it from the world that we deal with in mobility, you are talking about individuals that are starting new job, new location, uprooting their families. So it's new homes, new schools, new culture, new language. Everything is shifting. We are there to help in as A RMC, however, that person's just going through a [00:14:00] lot of stress.

And whether we like it or not, sometimes that stress comes out in the conversations they have with us, and it might be something very minor that sets them off, but we are probably the first person that's gone, how you doing? How's everything going? And they suddenly just boom, offload. Well, for our consultants and for our employee, that can be a really stressful scenario because to your point, previous call might be amazing, happy, and smiley, and then all of a sudden, whoa, they're having to deal with a lot of someone else's emotional baggage.

Danni: Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. Um, I, I think that's the thing. It's, it's really tough, isn't it, when you're client facing, um,

Luc Innocent: Mm-hmm.

Danni: trying to go about your day, doing your job and doing your best, but people that you're dealing with, as you said, are going through. Huge changes in your life, uh, in their lives.

And I mean, as I said to you, I see sirva as a stress management company, basically. I feel like that's what you're doing. You're managing other people's stress and overwhelm and things that are going on in their life. It's huge amounts of change. Um,

Luc Innocent: Yep.

Danni: absolutely. You, you, maybe [00:15:00] one tiny thing goes wrong, but for them it's like the straw that breaks the camels.

Back. And you know what it's like and, and I think this is where empathy's really important, which is understanding, you know, when you are going through a really stressful time, there's a million things to think about. That one little thing, it's the last thing that you know, and you can't take it anymore. And the problem is when we are overwhelmed and when we're stressed, we are not our best selves. You know, it's really hard to hold back. It's really hard. And sometimes we behave in ways that we, we later think, I wish I hadn't said that, or I wish I hadn't done that. Um, and, um. and yeah, absolutely. You can so easily in, in your job, I can imagine, be at the receiving end of a lot of overwhelm, a lot of emotion. And I, I think first of all, if, if that was me, and it is tough, but you have to think about, this is one thing. okay. This is a stressful time for them. Let's be empathetic and understand what is going on, but just because someone is throwing their energy [00:16:00] down the phone on an email or whatever it is, don't need to pick it up. And I think that's the most important thing because it's so easy to. Shovel it. Take it right? Okay. Yes, yes, yes. And, and take it personally. And then, you know, we, we, as I say, we we're either working from home, so it's like all that stress feels like it's in our personal space, which is really, um, overwhelming as well.

Or we're in the office, we put it in our bags, we take it home and we unleash it at home. And then everyone else. Gets the, the brunt of it. And so this energy is just passing around this negative energy from the client to you, to your family, to your friends or or to another colleague or whatever it might be. So it's really important that we learn to go, okay, I understand what, what's going on with this person. I feel really empathetic towards them. But I need an onboard what's going on here because I know that I've done my best. I know that I'm trying really hard and I understand this isn't a me problem. This is something that's going on with that person, and I'm gonna try [00:17:00] and understand them and kind of navigate the situation for them, but I don't need to onboard that. That emotion that is not within my job description, that is not what I'm supposed to do. And you know, I don't have to do it. I can still be, in fact, I'm better at my job when I don't onboard those negative emotions.

Because How do you feel when you've had a really, like an interaction like that with someone and you think, God, that wasn't fair. I didn't mean. You know, that wasn't me. It wasn't my fault, or it wasn't X, Y, and Z. It makes you feel rubbish, right? Like yeah. And then that can then be your mood for the rest of the day, or it could impact your week, or it impacts the next call you have with the next client. So it's, it's really it, you know, it's easy for us to feel really upset, but it's also really important to remember this isn't about me. You know, I'm doing my best, that person's trying their best, but I need ant onboard this emotion. And I think just even knowing that information. yourself of that every day is really, really [00:18:00] powerful, and it can be an incredibly good coping tool and technique to kind of protect our mental health and our mental space as well, which is important.

Luc Innocent: Empathy is good. Onboarding other people's, uh, emotions not so great. That's what I'm hearing from that one. So you brought up a,

Danni: a hundred percent.

Luc Innocent: you brought up a really interesting topic there, the kind of work from home. So obviously I. We had Covid a couple of years back. It's created interesting work scenarios for a lot of people in the workplace.

Um, some of us are, are fully at home now. We've got others who are hybrid, getting back to the office, actually doing some socializing on a face-to-face side of things. Other people making use of, you know, work from anywhere, which, you know, all of these things, they're fantastic in a lot of ways. They've given us flexibility to do a lot of other things which have helped us, our mental health.

Amazingly so, but there is a flip side of that. Um, [00:19:00] you know, I think you mentioned previously the, uh, the whole loneliness component when we connected. So I was just wondering if we can kind of, let's talk to the people that work from home first then, and kind of say what are some of the things that they need to be aware of when working from home, uh, and potentially some of the little, little tips just to kind of break up that loneliness piece.

Danni: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I think that the fact that we don't talk about the epidemic of loneliness is really telling because it's incredibly powerful. I. Don't know. I mean, I don't like to give stats that aren't completely accurate, but I believe that like chronic loneliness is as dangerous as smoking eight cigarettes a day. Um, and it's, it's, it really impacts our health and it's mainly because we're pack animals, right? So, and it comes back to this. We have to realize we are just animals at the end of the day. And we, we work better and we thrive when we are around other people. And that's why. The concept of a, we WeWork kind of came about.

It's why we sit in cafes [00:20:00] and we don't know anyone around us, but we choose to go and sit with other people and we feel better about it. You know, we feel there's an energy that comes about from being with other people. It's like a, it's actually probably a safety thing when it comes down to it. But, um, let's not get into the anthropology, but it's, it's really interesting how much we need to be around other people and. know, uh, it loneliness is, is something that impacts so many people. As I said, it really is an epidemic and it caused a lot of problems during Covid, if you remember, what did people say, um, when they said, what was the first thing you're gonna do when we, when lockdowns over, Pretty much everyone said, I'm gonna see my family, I'm gonna see my friends.

I'm going to, I, I spend time with other people. It's what we crave the most because we just love being around other people and it's incredibly important for our mental wellbeing. So, um, you know, I, I think. Uh, making sure that we connect with other people. And it might not be connecting with your colleagues, but make sure you are connecting with other people [00:21:00] outside, um, of your office and outside of your computer screen.

It's incredibly important for your wellbeing, um, in order to do that. Um, so invest in hobbies. Spend time with family, friends, reconnect with people, but having those face-to-face connections is really important. Uh, it's really interesting actually. There's, um, a new growing trend around Europe of get togethers where people are getting together without any technology and they're sitting around.

Some people are talking, other people aren't. They're just sitting in a space free. Some people are reading, some people are knitting, playing games, chatting, all sorts of things. It's. It's hilarious 'cause it's like basically Pretech world, but it's being sold like it's this new avant garde way of kind of being with people.

But that's what we used to do before mobile phones. That was my childhood, was, you know, sitting around with friends and or people and meeting people and not, but it's amazing how. We've realized we [00:22:00] need non-tech spaces where we connect with humans on a human to human level. So you are working from home and you do feel lonely, be afraid to, you know, reach out and make the effort to, to go and meet friends.

Make the effort to make new friends, build a hobby, invest in, you know, uh, something that, that's really important to you and find like-minded people. It's so important that we do that. And I think there are other things that we need to pick up on as well, which is if you are working from home, and as I said, you know, not every day is a good day. Um, and not every day is a good day for the people you are working with and your clients and all of those things. You are in your sacred home. is where you, you know, it's supposed to feel like your sanctuary. It's your safe space in the world is your home. And sometimes, you know, it's very easy to let all of the stresses of work and everything, which are inevitable sometimes to happen. to let that kind of into this safe [00:23:00] space can feel a bit. dunno, it's, it's a bit confusing. It can feel a bit icky. It can feel a little bit like you can't escape that difficult time. Whereas, you know, back when we used to go to work into the office, no matter what, you had the commute to kind of digest what was going on.

You kind of shed all that mental load. And then you get home, you take your work clothes off and you relax into the evening, whatever it is that you are doing, and you are back into your sanctuary. But. We, we are kind of missing that component. So something that I do myself and became a, a habit in lockdown and is now something that I do religiously, is I get outta my office.

I, I lock down, write a list, tomorrow's to-do list, write it down. Laptops shut down. Office is locked. I'll go for a walk. I might even actually genuinely change my clothes because it's like a psychological works off now. Um. Maybe take my makeup off, put my hair up, relax, do whatever I'm doing [00:24:00] and work is over.

Then I go for a quick walk around the block, get my brain fresh, think through everything I need to do and come back home and I'm. Wife, mom, Danny, all of those things away from work and work, uh, you know, clear out the cobwebs. I think little things like that are so important, um, and you just have to try them. You know, we, we are so brilliant at having all of these ideas. Oh, why don't you do that? Why give it a go? See what it feels like. Give it, try it a day, then another day, then another day. And see whether that makes a difference to you because your home is your sanctuary and you need to protect that space.

'cause otherwise where are you going to get that sense of comfort and, and, and, you know, all of those things. So that's definitely something that I would encourage for people to protect their mental wellbeing if they're working from home.

Luc Innocent: It is really funny one 'cause I, I will freely, I don't miss my commute at all from the general getting up earlier to spending what I viewed at times to be wasted.

Danni: Yeah.

Luc Innocent: now [00:25:00] working from home to your point, I. I've actually almost instilled, okay, actually, I now need a commute. So first thing in the morning, I do get up and go for a 10, 15 minute walk, and I do call it my commute.

Um, I'm one of these middle aged men that sadly jumps into Lycra every now and again and jumps onto a bicycle. And when I, sadly, um, but when I, when I track it in Strava, I actually sometimes call it commute time. Again, it's more that mental processing and it's partly 'cause I went a very long time where working from home I was literally changed my desk and okay.

There's times during the working day where you can't escape. You can't have those breathers after a bad call. However, you can still try and top and tail your day

Danni: Yes.

Luc Innocent: some sort of break because otherwise my poor wife takes all of my verbal abuse after I've had a lovely day. Um, or at least I'm pent up in a way that, yeah, I just need.

Danni: You are. Yeah. All of those things. [00:26:00] Yeah, totally. Get that.

Luc Innocent: So, I mean, we've talked a lot about the physical rest, shall we call it that? Where Yep. Take time away from your day. That's not always possible during the working day. So how do we kind of, you know, I look at my, my calendar today, sadly, it's a little bit back to back. Um. If calls don't go well, what other things can we do that we're not emotionally pent up?

And actually we go back to a more analytical approach to the next call. So I'm not literally going, that was a bad call that I had first thing at eight o'clock, and I'm literally carrying that and it's getting worse throughout the day. I.

Danni: yeah. Or even worse, you then have a meeting with your team or something and you offload it onto them. You don't necessarily know that you're doing it, so your team sits there thinking. Have we done something wrong? going on

Luc Innocent: Mm-hmm.

Danni: I'm, I'm confused. Am I, you know, am I gonna get told off?

Have I, am I in trouble here? Then that impacts them with their clients and it becomes this ripple [00:27:00] effect that happens. So, yeah, absolutely learn. To put the stop gapp. It's kinda like putting a dam in the emotional kind of river that's happening, and we need to learn to do that. And you are absolutely right.

So what we're talking about here is emotion. These are emotions, they're feelings that are, that are being, that passed on from one to another. Now, the brain cannot be emotional and logical at the same time. It's impossible. The brain isn't built. To, to be able to think, uh, in both ways. So if you are feeling really overwhelmed, you're feeling upset, you're feeling angry, you're feeling resentful, any of these things you are not feeling, you are not thinking logically, you are only thinking with emotion.

Now, how many times have you ever thought, oh, I wish I hadn't said that, or, that wasn't the best thing to say. You probably were coming from an emotional. Space because that's when, you know, as I said, we are not our best selves when we're feeling really overwhelmed or really, um, emotional. So what we need to do is switch our logical brain back on [00:28:00] because that's when we go, do you know what the client didn't mean that when they said that? It's not me. So I'm okay. I can move on from this, and I just hope that they feel better soon. That's what we want to be thinking. Or you know, my boss, I know they're really overwhelmed. It might be, I don't know, right now it's April, it's appraisal season. They're probably really overwhelmed as well. Um, so do you know what, understand where they're coming from.

So what we really need is logic, not emotion. So what we need to do is switch. Our brain on to the other side of our brain, and a really easy thing that we can all do is actually play a little logical game. So. A game of solitaire, a little Sudoku, something that requires our logical brain. Work through it.

Take a couple of minutes and you will notice how you go. Oh, okay. I feel better now. Now I can think things through and it, it's incredible. It's such a powerful. Teeny tiny little [00:29:00] tool. It's one of the best things that I ever learned. I, I learned it about five years ago. I was like, oh my God, this is brilliant. And I use it all the time whenever I need to. Um, you know, I, I'm, I work in an industry that is incredibly emotive. I'm always thinking about other people. What's going on? I'm listening and I'm absorbing, I'm imagining what it might be. And so over the years, um, and certainly as a, uh, when you are in psycho-analysis training, you have to learn to kind of have a little bit of a barrier up so that you don't onboard the emotions all the time.

This is a really useful trick, but also. I think it's being curious about what's going on and not necessarily thinking, you know, this isn't about me. This is a them situation and, and so on and so forth. But it's that logic that we need to get switched on. So that is the tool that I would recommend when we are super busy back to back, you can find two or three minutes to go, okay, I'm gonna play Sudoku quickly. And then you start to feel that relief and it's such, uh, a brilliant little trick. So definitely give that [00:30:00] one a go.

Luc Innocent: So I'm gonna say we've kind of ticked off a few now. Uh, when I think about seven fundamentals of resting our bodies and mind, we've had a little chat about the physical, um, the, the mental, the emotional side, um, social, getting together with people and things. Um, let's briefly on on hobbies. Um, but obviously, you know, there is the other side of creative rest.

A lot of us sadly, don't necessarily do work is not always our hobby for a lot of people. Um, so we touched on kind of that creative stuff. The other fundamental of rest is the cellular rest, and I think sadly it's probably one that people necessarily, Hmm. They might not deal with that the best. So can you just kind of talk a little bit about what cellular rest is and how we can kind of use certain tools to help us in that space?

I.

Danni: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we have to be thinking about when we think about cellular rest, it's like. It's everything to do with our body, right? So we are thinking about how it's such a cellular [00:31:00] level, our ourselves, literally how we are. So it's everything to do with what we're doing with our body.

So it's like, how is your sleep? This is the number one. Stress relief, anxiety relief, mental health boosting situations. I'll tell you something that happened to me yesterday. Give you a perfect example. Um, uh, so as I said, just had a little baby, four month old little birdie and, um, he, he's having problems eating and it's all sorts of things.

And as a parent or anybody who's a childcare, you know how stressful it is. 'cause every day I am like, has he. What's he eating? What's going on? So on top of everything else, you're just always thinking about these things and it is incredibly overwhelming. So we took him to a specialist. He's crying.

There's this, I'm tired, there's all this stuff that's going on, and I, I was basically given some information from the doctor and it was very simple information, but I was really stressed. We came racing home from the doctor. The appointment was late, there was loads of traffic. We were having a dinner party that evening and I'm hosting so. was just so [00:32:00] much going on. It was so overwhelming. I was like crying my eyes out about this thing that I'd just been told about Baby Birdie, and I said to my husband, I was like, I cannot do tonight. You're gonna have to do tonight. I need to go to sleep. I need sleep. I have a good solid sleep. I woke up and I thought, oh, that was a bit silly, but I. Give myself, you know, you were tired, you were overwhelmed. It was an emotional situation, but I didn't respond my best. I was tired, I was exhausted. I'd forgotten to eat most of the day, so I hadn't nourished my body in any way, shape or form. I was exhausted. I was overwhelmed with all of these emotions, and so the best doesn't come out.

I go to sleep, I wake up and everything. I'm like, okay. That was. Really simple information. I can digest all of this. Now I can deal with all of the things and I get up and I'm super productive and get on with everything that's going on around. And you feel rested. You feel recovered. when you're stressed, when you're overwhelmed, one of the first things that we sacrifice is sleep. We, and, and what happens is that sometimes, not on purpose, but sometimes definitely on purpose. [00:33:00] I dunno if you've ever heard of revenge. Sleep procrastination, which is where when we're feeling really stressed and overwhelmed, we stay up really late it's kind of like we want to give ourselves time to, I don't know, watch Netflix, scroll on social media, do something that's kind of like

Luc Innocent: I'll

Danni: numbing,

Luc Innocent: admit that's, I go down the, uh, yeah, as you say, that's normally where the phone comes out, and before you know it, you've killed an hour when actually you should gone to bed.

Danni: exactly that. And that's what I'm saying. We think that we are doing, it's kind of like we call it a revenge, procrastination, but actually what you need to do is get some rest. need rest. Sleep is the most important thing. That we can, other than food and water, obviously it is so important and we do not give it the respect and the time that it deserves.

Sleep is our best friend, basically, and we must, must, must encourage. So having really, really good sleeping habits as much as humanly possible. [00:34:00] Down at the same time. Up at the same time. And I must say that's one of the good things about having a, a baby is I am so set in when I go to bed and when I wake up I have to, I can't do anything else. You know, I have to, 'cause I've got someone else that I need to, to wake up for as well. Not just, you know, work and everything else. You have to do that. And so it impacts lots of other things. Also, having some screen free time. An hour before bed. We all know the research. We all know that it's important because our brains see this blue light and it keeps us switched on. So our brains find it hard to shut down and actually get restful sleep. So an hour before bed, no screens, read a book. Read a book. It's so good for you. It's really good. And I'll tell you a couple of reasons why. one, it's tiring in a good way. So it gets your brain tired. 'cause it's, it's like a creative thing. So your brain is being creative. It's not being fed information like a, like a watching a reel or social media or something like [00:35:00] that's. Cheap entertainment. Whereas reading a book requires our brain to actively imagine what's going on. the technology, the way that social media and TV and everything is, that's cheap entertainment. But reading is the same as like wooden toys and things like that. We, it requires our brain to actively think about these things. That's when it stretches the brain. The neurons are stretching, the brain's getting creative. Exactly. That's tiring for us. It's also kind of like a little bit of an escape so that when you are feeling stressed, takes you to a whole new world, reading is really good. Secondly, it is a form, it's a flow activity Now, flow activities I absolutely love. I learned about them years ago and I thought, what? Oh no, this bad. Then I started researching it. So, um, there's a, a, a, a really famous, uh. Well he was, he died recently, Hungarian American psychologist called Miha, Chichen Miha.

I love saying his name so much. And, um, he [00:36:00] basically dedicated his entire life to understanding what is human happiness. And, um, he. belief is that it's something called flu. Now, have you ever done anything in life? I'm sure you all have. Everyone will have done where time just evaporates. Not from social media, but when you're doing something, it could be, Uh, uh, playing a sport, it could be gardening, could be knitting, could be, uh, playing a game. Um, chatting with friends, uh, oh gosh, any baking, cooking, all of these activities, in our lives where time just disappears and. Apparently, according to me, hay chimi haye, that is when humans are at peak happiness, it's when we are somewhat challenged. We are having to stretch ourselves. We have some skill and capability, um, at it. But it's, it's, that is when the brain is really happy and [00:37:00] reading is one of those activities. So entering into a flow activity where you are feeling. Incredibly happy. In a kind of cellular level, you are feeling joy. Your brain is being stretched a little bit. Just before bed is one of the best things that you can actually do. So yes, switch off the screens. Don't procrastinate. Give yourself set times when you go to sleep every day, when you wake up every morning. Um. All the basics and invest in some kind of flow activity during the day, read before bed, um, that is, is one of the best things that you can do.

So really working on your sleep. And then of course nutrition is, is invaluable, uh, understanding what food you're putting into your body. Is really important as well. So the, I would say those are the two things I would be thinking about when it comes to cellular stress management. And it's something that we teach a lot, um, at dh when coming back to the genetic test that you saw Bri uh, brilliance through [00:38:00] resilience, um, it, we actually, based on your genetics, there are certain foods, supplements and things that you should be having to support your stress management. Um, so looking into things like that is really important and, and valuable.

Luc Innocent: I was, uh, bitterly disappointed when, uh, I actually downgraded the volume of coffee I was having per day. And then actually for the last year, I've switched to decaf if no coffee I. And I was bitterly disappointed that it worked and I was much more level, those peaks and troughs that you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, I wasn't peaking quite as much, but I wasn't dipping nearly, quite so much.

Danni: Yeah.

Luc Innocent: Um, and so I think, you know, from a new, it's just, there's a balance somewhere in the middle it's.

Danni: yeah. Goodness me, I, I'm one of those people I lie in bed at night dreaming about and getting really happy about the fact that I'm gonna have coffee in the morning. I, I absolutely cannot be. Do you know what? It, it's so funny, before lockdown, [00:39:00] I, uh. I had a serious anxiety problem for a while I was really like, you know, doctor healed myself, like working on what's going on here, how can I fix this?

I'm not sleeping, I'm waking up in the middle of the night, have this terrible twitch. And I was uh, I mean, I was literally doing everything I could from a psychological perspective, talking to colleagues, to friends, all of this research, research. Basically, I was drinking caffeine from about half six in the morning to about half, six at night.

I must have been having about, I don't know, eight cups of coffee, maybe more a day. And basically that was the problem. So now I have two cups of coffee before midday and nothing else afterwards. Um, and yeah, it's life changing. I'm not sure I could go down to non, uh, it would just be too, I, I couldn't do it.

I, I don't want to, can't make me.

Luc Innocent: Yeah, the, I I will admit the flip side is a little joy goes outta your life, but, uh, yeah, again, it, it.

Danni: What is it [00:40:00] about the joy of going and getting a coffee? I don't know. It's just so there's something so like wonderful about it. I dunno what to

Luc Innocent: You said earlier, you know, stepping away from your desk again, grabbing a hot drink, all of those that allows you some space. Um, it's one of the big differences for me working from home versus in the office. In the office you have a break from your desk, you talk to a few other people. How was your day?

Did you see the football last night? What are you doing at the weekend? How's family?

Danni: Yeah,

Luc Innocent: really get those things necessarily. But you can still get the small win, which is flicking on the kettle or punching the button on the espresso machine.

Danni: Absolutely. And you know, you've just reminded me of something that I used to talk about a lot, which was microdosing joy. And all the different things that you can do. So I, I think about it, about the five senses. So something you can hear, smell, touch, uh, is that, are there five senses? Yeah. Hear, see, smell, touch. And what's the other one? Maybe there are only four. [00:41:00] Can't think. Taste. Taste. There we go. So if you think about them, like little things that you can do. So for example, if I'm having a really stressy day, I will say to uh, Alexa, or put on my Spotify by, I wanna listen to the Spice Girls. Something that just inevitably brings me so much joy.

One little song, three minutes. and a half minutes, whatever it is, can just shift up your mindset so much. Or I dunno, looking at a photo of your loved ones. Um, I used to ask people, I used to do an actual workshop called, uh, my, uh, hacking Your Happiness. Um, so thinking about all the different things.

One of the things is flow activities. So things, hobbies, things bring you so much joy, you know, your, your learning. Something you are enjoying it, all of that kind of stuff. But then these little things that we can do throughout the day. So if you think about it, like something to to drink is like a hot drink makes you feel really nice.

Like it's something really pleasurable about it. Even if it's an herbal tea or, I dunno, my diet, favorite [00:42:00] diet coke, uh, which I, I only have one a day. I'll sadly again, had to cut down on those. But, um, so things like that and, and things that you smell like your, your favorite, I don't know, like your partner's shirt or, or top or perfume or your.

Your child's hair or I don't know, just all sorts of things. People came up with so many ideas during lockdown about all these different things that you can do. Um, you know, it's just, it's really important. Like what can you look at? Look outside, look at the blue sky and just spend a moment reflecting on, on something.

And you're doing that, something that brings you joy. And I think there's all these little things that we can do to microdose on joy because it really is a choice. You know, it really is a choice. You've got to actively choose. I think that's what lots of people forget about mental health and. Lots of things to do with our mental wellbeing is it requires effort and it requires action. You know, you can't, for example, if anxiety is a big problem around the world right now, you can't think yourself out of [00:43:00] anxiety. You have to act your way out of anxiety. And it's the same with lots of different things. You have to put the effort in. Nothing changes if nothing changes. So if you're feeling really lonely, you have to make the efforts and it's, it's really.

It, it feels contradictory because when, if you are lonely, if you are feeling anxious, if you are feeling low, the last thing you feel like doing is putting energy into doing something. But it's, it's like you have to use energy to gain energy, and so you have to do it. Otherwise you're gonna stay there. So you have to make a decision.

I'm going to do something different, even if it's just microdosing on joy once or twice a day for a week, and just seeing how much that lifts your energy and gives you some more energy so that you can then go and do something a little bit bigger.

Luc Innocent: Uh, and that's almost the first step, isn't it, is just almost being able to, at some point talk to someone, or even if it's to kind of start a list, just get some sort of routine. I love the idea of microdosing on happiness. Um, I'm gonna [00:44:00] try and start coming up with a, as much as I've got a play track for the gym, maybe I should have one for work before my next big presentation.

Danni: Well, gym music is like giving you all the energy to do that, but actually joy music is about just loving what you're listening to. I think for me, taking me back to my childhood to like my teenage years, you know, there's always something lovely about that or, or something that reminds me of.

Family holiday or something, you know? So I remember we always used to listen to Elton John on repeat when we used to drive down to Cornwall as a family. So it was always like such a brilliant point. It just takes you back to that moment and smell is the same, you know, it's so powerful. The smell go literally smelling flowers and.

Smelling blossoms. And I dunno, just all of these, just different things. There's lots of joy around us, but we have to want to find it and we want, you know, we have to onboard it as well. It is a choice. Um, so yeah.

Luc Innocent: I think that's a, a great place for us to probably wrap up. Wrap up is, uh. [00:45:00] I can say microdosing on happiness. So thank you so much, Danny, for, for sharing all of your, your insights today. Um, really great insightful information. But before you go,

Danni: Yes.

Luc Innocent: would be your top tip to share with people?

Danni: Oh gosh. Top tip. I've already given so many of my favorite top tips. Um,

Luc Innocent: Yep.

Danni: gosh, what is my, uh, a top tip for what? Good mental wellbeing

Luc Innocent: Yeah, I'll say for, for mental wellbeing, and then I'll just, I'm gonna say being resilient.

Danni: being resilient. I. I think the top tip is, uh, for being resilient is probably taking complete accountability for yourself. And I know, a big one, right? So big tip, but. For me it was a game changer. And I'll tell you a really quick story 'cause I know we all have to go. Um, so I, uh, my background's really convoluted, loads and loads of degrees, lots of university time, lots of doing jobs.

I absolutely hated in order [00:46:00] to do said degrees and so

Luc Innocent: Yep.

Danni: to where I wanted to go. And, um, I remember. I used to be what I call a yes but person. I gave all my power away to everyone all the time. And, um, I was driving along to one of these jobs that I absolutely hated, and I was late again, and I had to go back to live with my parents in Birmingham when, uh, to do this so I could afford to do the, the qualification. And, um, so I was driving along. My parents forced me to have this job. I thought I was gonna get off scot free and I could just go to university. But no, they were like, no, if you're gonna stay here, you're gonna have to get a job. And I thought, God, another job I don't love. And um, but it's one of those sacrifices you have to make.

But anyway, I was late again and I was driving along and I. All that. Someone in front of me was letting loads of traffic in, and I remember sitting there being like, why are they doing this to me? And these are the exact words I thought, why is this person doing this to me? And it was like I had this sudden brainwave, I [00:47:00] must have told this story a hundred times because it's so poignant to my life. I realized therein then no one was doing anything to me. Everyone was getting on with their lives, doing their thing. I was late. Because of me and only me, it was like this huge wake up moment in my life where I thought, Danny, you are in the driving seats of your life. You make the choices you make good and bad if you're going to choose to be late and lazy and wake up.

Then you have to deal with those repercussions. It's not because of someone else. No one else has done anything to you. You are in the driving seat of your life, literally and metaphorically, uh, at that moment in time. So you have to take on board, you have to take accountability for yourself. Don't want to be late.

Wake up earlier. If you want something good to happen. You also have to. Make these things happen in your life, you have to do that. And that is a key to being resilient because when you have ownership of your life, there's nothing that anyone else can do that can [00:48:00] take that away from you. You are literally, there you are. You own everything. The good and the bad. And, and it's incredibly empowering. It's one of the best things that you can decide to do is take complete accountability for everything and, and we call it an internal locus of control in psychology, where you own your, your destiny. When you have an external locus of control, other people's moods, other people's behaviors, other people's actions dictate your mood and your actions and your behavior and your outta control. You become a victim of life. I believe in being a victor of life with complete accountability.

Luc Innocent: Amazing. Thank you, Dan. That was great.

Once again, everyone, listeners, thank you for. Listening to sirva soundbites. If you enjoy our show, please click subscribe and share and be sure to come back next time. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to drop us a [00:49:00] note at soundbites@sirva.com. Until then, this is Luke and Danny. And don't forget, sirva provides everything needed to move talent and deliver experience.

See you next time. Thank you.

Awesome. Danny, that was great. Thank you so much.

Danni: Thank you so much.